LONDON CRIMINAL #96-00060
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
CHALMER C. HAYES,
JANUARY 15, 1997
TRANSCRIPT OF TRIAL PROCEEDINGS
BEFORE THE HONORABLE JENNIFER B. COFFMAN
UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE, and a jury
FOR THE PLAINTIFF: MR. PATRICK MOLLOY
MR. MARTIN HATFIELD
ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEYS
110 WEST VINE ST.
LEXINGTON, KY 40507
FOR THE DEFENDANT:
MR. GATEWOOD GALBRAITH
ATTORNEY AT LAW
1305 NICHOLASVILLE ROAD
NATHAN F. PERKINS
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
P.O. BOX 5161
LONDON, KY 40745
6 Q. Mr. Hayes, have you ever been employed by the CIA?
7 A. Yes, sir.
8 Q. For how long?
9 A. On and off, ever since I was about 19 years old, sir.
10 Q. Okay, sir. Have you ever traveled abroad for them?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. Have you ever lived abroad for them?
13 A. Sir?
14 Q. Have you ever lived abroad for them?
15 A. I am sorry?
16 Q. Have you ever lived abroad, have you ever lived in other
18 A. Yes, sir, yes, sir.
19 Q. Doing their work?
20 A. Yes, sir.
21 Q. Now, sir, when a person works for the CIA, do they get a
22 paycheck every week from the CIA?
23 A. No, sir.
24 Q. Would you - would you describe - would you describe for
25 the jury how they work?
1 A. Well, it's according to - you get paid by a lot of times
2 by on a job. It's not like drawing a payday and they take
3 out Social Security and what have you, and your withholding.
4 You contract for certain labor and certain jobs to be done.
5 You had several places that you could pick up payment. Our
6 government runs companies under different names and they own
7 the companies. Whenever you need money you can go there and
8 pick up your - the kind of money you have got coming.
9 Q. So the checks you would have picked up as an agent for
10 the CIA would in fact have been done under the ruse of being
11 employed in another fashion?
12 A. Some of them and some of them you are - you can also
13 pick up cash that way too, sir.
14 Q. Yes, sir. Mr. Hayes, during the course of your
15 employment with the CIA, have you run businesses or done
16 business that gave you either a front for making a living or
17 allowed you to make a living?
18 A. Yes, sir.
19 Q. And what had those businesses - would you enumerate for
20 the jury what some of those businesses have been?
21 A. One of them, I had a business in Brazil that was
22 Challenger Limited, that I had some other purposes of being
23 there, sir.
24 Q. Did you in fact, when you were in Brazil, get involved
25 in a deal smuggling - a gem smuggling ring?
1 A. I got involved around it. I wasn't involved in it, sir,
2 I was involved around it.
3 Q. Okay. Well, before we get to that, let's pass, get some
4 time --
5 A. But I --
6 Q. Well --
7 A. I had other needs for being in Brazil before this ever
8 come up, sir.
9 Q. Yes, sir. In the course of your employment with the
10 CIA, have you in fact developed contacts and resources
11 within the intelligence community?
12 A. I have, sir.
13 Q. And are you in reasonably consistent contact with those
15 A. A number of them, sir.
16 Q. Is it safe to say, sir, that given your CIA contacts -
17 excuse me. Let me lay a little bit more foundation.
18 In your experience with the CIA, have you come into
19 contact with operatives who would carry out assignments on
20 behalf of the government?
21 A. All the time, sir.
22 Q. Did you run across people who have free lanced on those
24 A. Yes, yes, sir.
25 Q. Would, given your experience, would it be hard to find
1 someone in the CIA or the other intelligence community that
2 would either satisfy or find someone to satisfy a request on
3 your part for an assassin?
4 A. It wouldn't be hard at all, sir.
5 Q. How long were you with the CIA, sir?
6 A. Since I was 19 years old, sir.
7 Q. That's 42 years?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. Now, if the government called up the CIA and say this
10 Chalmer C. Hayes or this C. Charles Hayes, does he work for
11 you? What are they going to find out?
12 A. Sir, they are not going to find out much. In fact, the
13 government probably already knows, they can call and they
14 won't even give them information. Other organizations
15 within the government they don't give information to.
16 That's their privilege.
17 Q. Prior to your getting involved in gems, what other kinds
18 of businesses were you involved in?
19 A. I was around cars, selling of cars, Mercedeses. There
20 was several other covers, sir. I - I don't think that some
21 of them I can reveal at this particular time because I - the
22 record is - a lot of it is redacted, as you know, and I
23 don't think that that would - that some of the other things
24 I can reveal at this time, sir.
25 Q. Have you in fact in the course of - course of your life
1 been subpoenaed to testify in front of grand juries, federal
2 grand juries?
3 A. I have numerous times been subpoenaed in front of
4 federal grand juries, House investigating committees,
5 subcommittees. I have been subpoenaed for all of it, sir.
6 Q. Have you in fact testified in front of Congress or
7 Congressional members?
8 A. I have, sir. Yes, sir, I have.
9 Q. We're going to - we're going to talk about the gem case
10 for a second, Mr. Hayes. Is the gem case the first time -
11 well, would you describe for the jury what the gem case is
12 about, sir?
13 A. Yes, sir. I was contacted in Brazil by some of the high
14 government officials which I knew there, that wanted to get
15 some jewels that was in the United States. A member of this
16 company, Embrine(?) Corporation, supposedly had went crooked
17 and was sitting over here with a lot of gems. They asked me
18 if I would try to help them retrieve the merchandise.
19 I wasn't too much interested until I found out one
20 thing. The guy that had the gems and what have you was from
21 Berea, Kentucky. And I said, yes, that's close to home, I
22 might. I don't know. And I went from there to Brasilia to
23 Goias, G-O-I-A-S, in other words, and also Brasilia, to talk
24 to them while in Brazil about the situation they had here
25 with the agent that they had. They also told me they had
1 problems over here with the United States Customs where they
2 were holding $5,000,000 worth of diamonds in Miami, and I
3 was to find out why they were holding them and what have you
4 and report back to them.
5 Q. In your capacity, were you being asked to do this in
6 your capacity with the CIA or as a private citizen?
7 A. More or less as a private citizen.
8 Q. On contract with the CIA?
9 A. No, sir, I wasn't on contract with them on that.
10 Q. You didn't enter into a formal contract with them?
11 A. That's right, at that time I was strictly on a contract
12 basis, and they knew of it, but they had no part in that,
14 Q. Okay.
15 A. None.
16 Q. Okay. Mr. Hayes, did you - did in fact, due to your
17 efforts, a gem seizure result?
18 A. Yes, sir, there have been many millions of dollars worth
19 seized in the United States because of this.
20 Q. Was there anybody arrested --
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. -- as a result of your investigation?
23 A. Yes, sir, a number of people have been arrested in it.
24 There is fugitives from justice right now, there has been
25 prison sentences been handed down, there have been - in
1 fact, the government pays you a mordi(?).
2 Q. That's what I want to get into. I want to stop you.
3 A. Well, what I --
4 Q. Were there any government officials of any country
5 arrested as a result of your investigation?
6 A. Yes. And there were investigations of officials here in
7 the United States as well, sir.
8 Q. Who was - who was arrested, that you recall, that might
9 have been a government official?
10 A. The minister of justice in Brazil was arrested. He was
11 the minister. There were senators arrested over there,
12 several others. They had quite a number of people that was
13 high - mayor of the town.
14 Q. Was that carried in the mainstream media at the time it
16 A. Yes, sir, all over the world.
17 Q. Yes, sir. As - under - do you believe that a United
18 States law exists that gives you a percentage of what was
19 seized in that matter?
20 A. Yes, sir. And it was discussed beforehand and
21 afterwards, yes, sir.
22 Q. Have you in fact - do you have any idea of how much
23 worth of gems were - were seized as a result of your work?
24 A. No, sir, I'm in the process now of trying to get a
25 complete accounting.
1 I would say this. It was well over $12,000,000 that
2 were seized. Well over $12,000,000. The gem seizure was
3 listed, and by United States Customs and all the papers, as
4 the largest gem seizure that was ever had in the United
5 States of America.
6 Q. How much did you think you have coming to you from the
7 government as a result of your work for them in that matter?
8 A. Well, somewhere in the neighborhood of - when they are
9 all put together, several different cases, you know what I
10 mean? They are all being fairly completed. It's been over
11 10 years ago. When it all comes out it will be somewhere
12 over - a little over a million dollars.
13 Q. And have you asserted that claim against the United
14 States government?
15 A. I have, and they have - they are attempting now to pay
16 some of the claims.
17 Q. They - they don't agree with your assessment of how much
18 of the jewels belong to your work, do they?
19 A. Well, they haven't agreed or they haven't denied, sir.
20 I am working for an accounting. We asked for - I asked for
21 an accountig on a check that they was trying to present to
22 me as, you know, $903. And I told them, I said I would like
23 to have an accounting what this goes on for. In the
24 meantime they sent me another check, I don't know, for
25 several hundred dollars, or sent me a paper that if I will
1 sign a paper that they will send to me. They want me to - I
2 told them I wanted an accounting of exactly where it come
3 from, how much and which claim and everything else. And as
4 to this date, I - I haven't got it back yet, sir.
5 Q. Do you think you have been treated fairly by Customs
6 officials for whom you believed you were working?
7 A. No, sir.
8 Q. Do you in fact think that they are trying to - do you
9 think they have paid you what you have forthcoming?
10 A. I haven't received anything yet, sir. And it's been
11 over 10 years. They are in the process now of just starting
12 to dribble some of the money out.
13 Q. Do you know people in Customs?
14 A. Sir?
15 Q. Do you know, did you ever have any official contact with
16 people in Customs?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. The Customs Department itself?
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. Do people in Customs know who you are?
21 A. Yes, sir, they sure do.
22 Q. Now, is that the first big brouhaha that you have had
23 with this government?
24 A. No, sir.
25 Q. What, prior to that time, did you - were you, you and
1 your government ever in conflict over anything else?
2 A. I have had a case in computers. Is that --
3 Q. No, this is - this is later. I want to go prior to the
4 gem situation.
5 A. Yes, I had a gun case that was a number of years ago
6 that there was a conflict over with the government.
7 Q. Okay. What - what is your general attitude toward your
8 government, Mr. Hayes?
9 A. Well, I love my government. As I have always said, I
10 love my government second to my God and would put my life on
11 the line for it.
12 Now, that doesn't mean that I appreciate some of the
13 government organizations that doesn't give people a fair
14 break and what have you, and doesn't try to do the right
15 thing. But I love my country, sir.
16 Q. Are you afraid of the government, Mr. Hayes?
17 A. Sir?
18 Q. Are you afraid of the government?
19 A. No, sir.
20 Q. Are you afraid of any of their agents?
21 A. No, sir.
22 Q. Mr. Hayes, have you ever sued the government?
23 A. Not to my knowledge, sir.
24 Q. Have you ever countersued?
25 A. Yeah, I countersued, yeah.
1 Q. How many times has the government sued you?
2 A. Four or five, six times I guess. I don't know.
3 Somewhere along there.
4 Q. And are we talking about the state or federal
6 A. Federal government, sir. I have never been, had any
7 allegations with the state government.
8 Q. And you have never initiated a suit but you have
9 countersued on suits that you - have been initiated against
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. Okay. There was a - would it be fair to say that there
13 was an even more heated confrontation between you and the
14 government later on after the gem seizure case?
15 A. Several of them, sir.
16 Q. What was the next time when you got involved in a heated
17 battle with the United States government?
18 A. After the gem case, I'm in the salvage business and buy
19 salvage, and the United States District Attorney's office,
20 the same one that Mr. Hatfield works for in Lexington,
21 Kentucky, right now, from them up there I bought a bunch of
22 computers from GSA that they sold as surplus equipment.
23 The government found out that they had left some witness
24 protection plans on it, on the tapes. They had also left
25 all their financial records on there. I think they was more
1 interested in their financial records than the other.
2 That's neither here nor there. But they wanted it back.
3 And my situation was, well, pay me for it and you can have
4 it. And no, we don't want to pay you, you are going to have
5 to give them back to us regardless. And I said, you mean I
6 just lose my money? And they never would answer that
7 question. They just said, no, we'll get them back, we'll
8 get a court order. Well, whatever. And they did.
9 Q. Did they sue you?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. You countersued them?
12 A. Yes, sir.
13 Q. They got the materials back?
14 A. Yes, sir.
15 Q. Sir, based upon your possession of those materials, have
16 you ever been asked to produce an affidavit as to the
17 content, nature or form of that material you found on those
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. Have you in fact initiated such --
21 A. I did not.
22 Q. -- such an affidavit?
23 A. I did not. He asked me if any other government agency
24 had got a copy of what I had retrieved, and my answer was,
25 if you have an argument with them, you go ask that other
1 government agency.
2 Q. Okay. Sir, has it - have you purported that the
3 material discovered on those computers was in fact a
4 software program that is currently the subject of major
5 litigation in this country?
6 A. It is, sir.
7 Q. Was the material derived off of those computers a
8 derivative of a software program called Inslaw software?
9 A. Yeah, it's Inslaw. That's not the name of the software
10 but that's the name of the company that produced the
12 Q. Is that some important software, Mr. Hayes?
13 A. Even to this day, it's still one of the best tracking
14 softwares that there is. The enhanced version is.
15 Q. What is the software that's been produced by Inslaw?
16 What is it called? How should we refer to it?
17 A. In this case here, it's called Promise and Enhanced
18 Promise software.
19 Q. What was that software designed to do, sir?
20 A. To track people, money. It can track anything except
21 maybe a rabbit or a hound dog. I doubt if it could do that.
22 But it could do just about anything as far as tracking goes,
23 keeps - keeps good records for tracking.
24 Q. Now, by tracking, let's try to clear it up. What do you
25 mean by tracking?
1 A. Keeping tabs on something. Being able to look at it and
2 bring it up the instant that you need it.
3 Q. Was this capable of tracking international financial
5 A. If it's programmed right, yes, sir, very much so.
6 Q. Is that what it's designed to do?
7 A. Sir?
8 Q. Is that what it was designed to do?
9 A. No, sir, that was just sort of swift and chips, was
10 designed for that originally along with Promise. And it
11 was - that was the NSA, based out of Maryland, N-S-A, done
12 this out of Maryland, originally done that, sir.
13 Q. Why were you called as a witness in front of a grand
14 jury -- pardon me. Were you called as a witness in front of
15 a federal grand jury regarding Inslaw and the software that
16 we've talked about here?
17 A. Yes, sir, I was.
18 Q. You have been a sworn federal grand jury witness
19 regarding this?
20 A. Subcommittees and grand jury, yes, sir.
21 Q. What is different about this software developed by
22 Inslaw that is different from software developed by anyone
24 A. Well, some of it is not different, some of them stole it
25 from Inslaw too like the government did, and some of them
1 didn't pay for the program and have copied it.
2 It's like a tape. You know, Kenny Rogers can make a
3 tape and have music on it. You can go to a store and buy
4 the tape and the tape that you buy in the store, Mr. Rogers
5 gets so much royalties, the company that made it does, and
6 the music company, everybody gets paid royalties. Yet you
7 can go home and take that tape and somebody else wants to
8 borrow it, say can I have that tape? If you make a copy of
9 that tape and give it to them, it is illegal. In other
10 words, not for distribution.
11 This is what they do with software a lot of times. They
12 will take somebody's software and copy it, or the government
13 will buy 50 copies and then they'll turn around and make 50
14 more copies, which you are not allowed to. And so it's hard
15 to answer exactly, Mr. --
16 Q. Is there a federal suit going on between the company
17 that developed the software and the Department of Justice?
18 A. There is, and as a result of it, last April of - in '96,
19 I think it was April, I would have to get the exact date,
20 you have a copy of the transcript exactly, that was my
21 latest problem with Department of Justice Lexington,
22 Kentucky, Mr. Famularo's office. I had a problem with my
23 learned colleague here, Mr. Hatfield sitting at the table's
24 office over there.
25 Q. Did you give a - did they take your deposition in that
2 A. I was there for over four hours with somebody from the
3 Department of Justice, and there in Mr. Hatfield's office
4 for over four - well, quite a bit over four hours. I don't
5 know. He can give you the exact time on it. I went in
6 there in the morning and never even got dinner and stayed
7 until late that evening.
8 Q. Now, Mr. Hayes, it has been alleged that you and a group
9 of other people have used this software to track the
10 financial banking transactions of high placed government
11 officials in this country. What can you tell the jury about
12 that, Mr. Hayes?
13 A. Well, without compromising somebody else, I - the proof
14 of the pudding is in the eating, so the saying goes. It's
15 happened, as we said it would. Yes, there is a company
16 known as the Fifth Column, that comes from section D that
17 was developed within the CIA many years ago. That section
18 is a split-off branch of it. They have been known to
19 champion a lot of people's rights.
20 THE COURT: I am not sure if you answered the
22 Could you ask him that question again, Mr. Galbraith?
23 MR. GALBRAITH: Yes.
24 I am sorry, sir, could you read it back?
25 THE COURT: Let see if I -- let me see if I can
1 summarize it. Wasn't the question whether he has used this
2 computer software to track the financial affairs of highly
3 placed government officials?
4 MR. GALBRAITH: Yes, yes, sir.
5 THE COURT: Would you answer that question,
6 please, sir?
7 BY MR. GALBRAITH:
8 Q. You or members of this Fifth Column?
9 A. I am not so sure that I can answer that legally. I can
10 say that I have used Promise [Promis] software, yes.
11 Q. Is Promise software, that's --
12 A. Regardless of what I done with it. Now, that's
13 something else.
14 Q. Is Promise software what in fact is - is the subject
15 matter of this federal action, this Company D with the
16 federal government?
17 A. Yes, sir.
18 Q. What does this company - Inslaw, did you say?
19 A. Yes, sir.
20 Q. What does this company allege that the federal
21 government did with this software?
22 A. Well, the company alleges - the company is Inslaw
23 Corporation. It's in New York. It's run by a fellow, the
24 president of it is named Bill Hampton [Hamilton], who has been
25 bankrupt. They are still in operation under chapter
1 something. All right. Whatever.
2 But anyhow, what happened they developed this Promise
3 software. They sold it to the government for tracking. It
4 tracks prisoners, it tracks cases, it tracks a lot things.
5 When they sold it to the government, they first sold it to
6 the Department of Justice, of all people. And they - I
7 think they sold it also partly to - only partly, partly to
8 the FBI. Well, this program was used to track operations
9 within the government. It's been alleged that the
11 And then they come out with an enhanced version, which
12 is a lot faster, a lot better. Just like a car, you know,
13 an improvement comes along all the time. Come out with a
14 better version called Enhanced Promise software that is out.
15 They have alleged that the government has taken this, and
16 instead of buying copies for everybody that was involved,
17 they have taken it and not only given it to other agencies
18 within the government, they also state that, believe it or
19 not, an ex-Attorney General and a fellow that was just
20 convicted here a few weeks ago out there, Mr. Brian in
21 California, not only took it from the government, took this
22 same software program and went out and not only sold it to
23 other countries, sold it to companies within the United
24 States in competition against Inslaw.
25 Q. So in fact --
1 A. The money --
2 Q. The allegation is that the government illegally
3 reproduced this software and in fact sold it itself to other
4 entities around the world?
5 A. Or people. I don't like to say that the government done
6 this, I would say - I would rather - my government didn't do
7 this, sir. The people within the government is the culprit
8 that's done it. People that was high up in the government
9 done it. The government didn't do nothing on this.
10 Q. Has - has this knowledge that the government - that
11 people within the government may have been accused of this,
12 and has your familiarity with the Promise software, has that
13 caused you to be examined for any unusual political affairs
14 in this country?
15 A. Yes, sir, they don't - any time that - I know they will
16 say no to this, but our government lies. I hate to say
17 this. That - our government doesn't lie, but the people in
18 it do.
19 Q. Answer the question, please, sir.
20 A. If - if - to answer this question, they - ask the
21 question one more time, Mr. Galbraith.
22 THE COURT: Just a minute, Mr. Galbraith.
23 A. This is all --
24 THE COURT: Excuse me, Mr. Hayes.
25 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.
1 THE COURT: We're not having a lecture here and
2 we're not having a sermon. I want you to listen to the - to
3 what the question is and answer the question, and nothing
4 else. You will be given latitude to explain your answer,
5 but let's avoid the digressions as much as we can.
6 Let's start with that again, Mr. Galbraith.
7 MR. GALBRAITH: Would you repeat the question,
8 Mr. Perkins?
9 (The last question was read by the reporter.)
10 MR. GALBRAITH: That's not a question, clear
11 question. Let me - I will withdraw that question and give
12 something that's a little more direct.
13 THE COURT: Yes, you may.
14 BY MR. GALBRAITH:
15 Q. Mr. Hayes, have you been responsible for the resignation
16 of any elected officials in this country?
17 A. I could have been a part of a group that has.
18 Q. Is that group the Fifth Column?
19 A. It is.
20 Q. You have in fact claim credit, along with the Fifth
21 Column, for having forced the resignation of various,
22 high-placed officials in this country, have you not?
23 A. Whatever the Fifth Column is guilty of, I am too, or
24 whatever they are praised for, I am with the Fifth Column.
25 Q. Did the Fifth Column obtain financial records of elected
1 Senators and Representatives, Federal Senators and
2 Representatives in this country?
3 MR. MOLLOY: Your Honor, I am going to object.
4 We're not here about the Fifth Column, we're here about
5 Mr. Hayes. If the question can be directed to him and not
6 about all these other folks, that would be fine.
7 THE COURT: Well, I think he has just, with that
8 last answer, said that he is one and in lock step with the
9 Fifth Column. And I think Mr. Galbraith is trying to
10 establish his opposition to government officials and various
11 agencies. So the objection is overruled and I will allow
13 MR. GALBRAITH: Thank you, Your Honor.
14 A. At the point of not admitting to a crime, if we unduly
15 tapped a phone or something that way, I'd say that we could
16 have been responsible, yes, sir.
17 BY MR. GALBRAITH:
18 Q. You are not familiar with any law that has been broken
19 in - by the Fifth Column, are you?
20 A. Well, nobody has ever been charged with it.
21 Q. Okay. Did the Fifth Column obtain financial records of
22 high placed elected officials in this country?
23 A. I am sure they --
24 MR. MOLLOY: Your Honor, I have no objection to
25 that question, if and when he can show that he is a
1 participant in that.
2 THE COURT: All right. That's fair enough.
3 That's a fair enough objection.
4 MR. GALBRAITH: Yes, ma'am.
5 THE COURT: You need to reword that question then.
6 MR. GALBRAITH: Yes, ma'am.
7 BY MR. GALBRAITH:
8 Q. As a part of your participation in the Fifth Column, do
9 you know if that group obtained financial records of high
10 placed elected officials in this country?
11 A. Yes, sir.
12 Q. Can you tell this jury a couple of names of whose
13 financial records were obtained?
14 A. At the point of a lawsuit that I could be sued by these
15 people, but this is fine, I can answer it one way. And I'm
16 not looking for a forum, Mr. Galbraith, in other words, to
17 put anything out. I can answer it very simply this way.
18 Q. Please.
19 A. As of last year, there was more Senators and Congressmen
20 resigned in Congress than has been known in the history of
21 the United States of America.
22 THE COURT: If you can answer the question, answer
23 the question. If you cannot answer the question, the Court
24 will presume that your attorney knows that you cannot answer
25 the question and won't ask it. So let's run that by one
1 more time.
2 Have you or have you not, by virtue of your
3 participation in the Fifth Column, gotten financial
4 information regarding elected officials in the Senate or the
5 House? Yes or no.
6 A. We have, yes.
7 THE COURT: All right. And are you going to give
8 their names or no?
9 A. I might give a couple of them, Your Honor. You are
10 asking me to the point that I cannot answer the question
12 THE COURT: That's the question that was asked.
13 Who are they?
14 A. And then I answered you - all right, one of them is
15 Mr. Coyne [William Cohen] that just got appointed by your President.
16 BY MR. GALBRAITH:
17 Q. Mr. who?
18 A. Coyne.
19 Q. Who is he?
20 A. From Maine --
21 Q. Who is he?
22 A. He resigned.
23 Q. Was he a Representative or a Senator from Maine?
24 A. He was a Senator from Maine. In other words, from up
25 there. You had a lady out west, Pat Schroder. [Schroeder]
1 Q. Are you telling this jury that you believe that
2 financial information obtained on these people would have
3 forced them to resign from their elected office?
4 A. Yes, sir. And I can even prove it to you with the last
5 name that I gave you, without getting into a match here, in
6 other words, of names and what have you.
7 Q. Are you familiar with the name Vince Foster?
8 A. Yes, sir.
9 Q. How do you know the name Vince Foster?
10 A. He worked for the White House and when he was counsel
11 out in Arkansas.
12 Q. He was in fact counselor to President Clinton?
13 A. Sir?
14 Q. Was he counselor to President Clinton?
15 A. Yes, sir.
16 Q. What has become of Mr. Vince Foster?
17 A. Mr. Vince Foster got killed.
18 Q. I believe that's been - has that been ruled a suicide?
19 Do you know?
20 A. I think it is. They had ruled it suicide, and they
21 couldn't make it stick so they had to reopen the case, and
22 it hasn't been ruled anything yet. In --
23 Q. Do you have any reason to believe that you know why
24 Mr. Foster would have been murdered or committed suicide?
25 A. Yes, I do.
1 Q. What is that reason?
2 A. Mr. Foster had been relieved of his bank account in
3 Bern, Switzerland.
4 Q. Well, now, that's - I realize that's a very succinct way
5 to put it. And without lecturing or a forum, I want you to
6 tell this jury what you know about that.
7 A. Okay. He had an account --
8 Q. Mr. Vince Foster?
9 A. Yes, Mr. Vince Foster had an account in Bern,
10 Switzerland. He had several million dollars in it. Money
11 was transferred to another account and Mr. Foster was told
12 if he wanted to get it, all he had to do is prove how he had
13 paid taxes on it, [had not] lied to the United States government, and
14 he could get the money back.
15 Q. He hadn't paid?
16 A. Mr. Foster was unhappy. So not only that, in the
17 meantime, during all of this going on when Mr. Foster was
18 there, there is ways of laundering and tracking money.
19 MR. MOLLOY: May we approach?
20 THE COURT: Yes, you may approach the bench. Just
21 a minute, Mr. Hayes.
22 (At the bench)
23 THE COURT: Let the record reflect the attorneys
24 are at the bench outside the jury's hearing.
25 MR. MOLLOY: I have never made this objection
1 before. This is McCarthyism. This man is sitting up there
2 making totally unsubstantiated accusations with no
3 foundation laid whatsoever as to how he has this
4 information, what his participation is, and he is sitting
5 here in this courtroom degrading people. And it's just
6 McCarthyism, unless and until he can show some reasonable
7 basis for the information that he purports to have.
8 THE COURT: Well, I am concerned that he's using
9 this as a forum, and if he - if you want to establish his
10 opposition to the government, you don't need to go this far.
11 MR. GALBRAITH: Your Honor, and it must be on the
12 record. It must be on the record. Based on my
13 investigation, based on my being hired into this case, I
14 have certain preliminary steps that needed to be shown to me
15 before I would take this man seriously. My background
16 investigation shows that I have been totally unable to
17 impeach this man on what he has told me. If he - our
18 defense to this is a conspiracy against this man. Every one
19 of the lower folks, all the folks down the line have --
20 THE COURT: I am sorry, I didn't hear you.
21 MR. GALBRAITH: All the folks down the line, the
22 agents, the field agents, the field supervisors, they all
23 claim that no, there is no reason for us to have a
24 conspiracy against this man; there is no reason for us to
25 bring a charge that we would not think was true against this
1 man. And I understand that's the reaction. But certainly I
2 should have the opportunity to show that there are people
3 outside this field supervisor who - who would have a great
4 reason to want to see this man --
5 THE COURT: But here is my concern. By all of
6 this elaborate detail that he's giving, for example, with
7 regard to Vincent Foster, he still has not shown that he
8 made anybody aware that he knows all of this.
9 MR. GALBRAITH: He has been published in major
11 THE COURT: I am not talking about that. I am
12 saying that he has - he is just sitting there espousing a
13 theory and that's all. If he wants to show that he has
14 become known for having that theory, then that might make it
15 relevant here. But even then, it wouldn't be necessary to
16 get into this kind of detail.
17 MR. GALBRAITH: Okay.
18 MR. MOLLOY: May I ask Mr. Galbraith a question,
19 Your Honor?
20 Are you going to be able to bring any witnesses in here
21 to show, to substantiate the claims of knowledge that this
22 man has?
23 MR. GALBRAITH: Yes, I am.
24 THE COURT: Well, now, wait a minute, though.
25 Whether - regardless of what he knows, it has to be shown
1 that someone in the government - government is a very broad
3 MR. GALBRAITH: Yes.
4 THE COURT: -- knew that he had these theories.
5 MR. GALBRAITH: Yes, okay. Yes, ma'am.
6 MR. MOLLOY: I would like --
7 THE COURT: Now, my question is, are you going to
8 be able, through him or some other witness, establish that
9 the government knew he had these theories?
10 MR. GALBRAITH: Yes, ma'am.
11 THE COURT: That's my first question.
12 MR. GALBRAITH: Yes, ma'am.
13 THE COURT: Are you? Now, my second question is,
14 is all of this detail necessary?
15 MR. MOLLOY: What?
16 THE COURT: Is all of this detail necessary?
17 Because this gets to the heart of this objection.
18 MR. GALBRAITH: Yes, I understand that. I
19 understand that. Your Honor, you must admit, I have never
20 heard a story like this in this courtroom. I have never
21 heard a defense like this.
22 THE COURT: I have never seen aliens walk in that
23 door, but that doesn't mean it's admissible.
24 MR. GALBRAITH: Yes, ma'am.
25 THE COURT: My question is, is all of this detail
2 MR. GALBRAITH: Well, you know, I don't know, Your
3 Honor. It depends on how the jury rules after it's all
4 over. I will try to cut back on the detail. And I
5 certainly don't want to eviscerate the name of somebody.
6 But this man, this is what this man --
7 THE COURT: Unnecessarily.
8 MR. GALBRAITH: Unnecessarily.
9 THE COURT: Unnecessarily. Now, if this man has
10 gone out - if this man has gone out and let everybody in the
11 world know that he has a certain theory, no matter what it
12 is, and no matter in what detail, then that may make it
14 MR. GALBRAITH: I understand, yes, ma'am.
15 THE COURT: But so far you haven't laid that
16 foundation at all, not at all.
17 MR. GALBRAITH: Given the nature and character of
18 what his testimony is, that's going to be hard to do to
19 begin with. But no, I understand the objection and I
20 understand what the Court's direction is on this, and I
21 don't think we need to go into a great deal of detail.
22 THE COURT: All right.
23 MR. GALBRAITH: And I'll certainly watch...
24 (In open court)
25 THE COURT: There has been an objection,
1 Mr. Hayes, to the detail into which you are going. And I
2 have expressed some concern as to whether it's necessary.
3 I also want a foundation laid about any government
4 understanding of what this gentleman knows, and therefore
5 the basis for the defense's theory that the government was
6 somehow retaliating.
7 MR. GALBRAITH: Thank you, Your Honor.
8 THE COURT: This detail must be shown to be
9 necessary before we'll go any further at this - at this
10 level of detail.
11 MR. GALBRAITH: Yes. Thank you very much, Your
13 BY MR. GALBRAITH:
14 Q. Mr. Hayes, have you been a spokesperson for the Fifth
15 Column in the past?
16 A. I have.
17 Q. Have you been interviewed by journalists as to your role
18 in the Fifth Column?
19 A. I have.
20 Q. Have you in fact been presented in the media as a
21 spokesperson for the Fifth Column?
22 A. That's correct, sir.
23 Q. In that media exposure, sir, have you alleged that this
24 Fifth Column obtained financial records on elected
25 individuals and tried to force their resignation --
1 A. I have.
2 Q. -- regarding this? Have you alleged that this financial
3 information was so embarrassing that it has led to the
4 resignation of an elected official?
5 A. It has, and some of the officials have complained, but
6 to no avail.
7 Q. Have you alleged publicly, sir, that you delivered some
8 of these financial transactions to these officials?
9 A. Yes.
10 Q. Was - for what purpose did you deliver this financial
11 transaction information to these officials?
12 A. I would get into a match - there is more than one reason
13 here, and without getting into a match again with Your Honor
14 up here, there is two or three reasons, sir. One, it was to
15 get them to resign. And another reason is why we wanted
16 them to resign rather than to see them prosecuted. But the
17 main reason was we wanted them to resign. We couldn't get
18 them prosecuted.
19 Q. And is that an allegation that you have made publicly?
20 A. I have, sir.
21 Q. Have those allegations appeared in the media?
22 A. Yes, sir, they sure have.
23 Q. And have they just locally appeared or have they
24 appeared nationally or internationally?
25 A. No, it's been all over the United States, it's even been
1 carried abroad, London Times Telegraph.
2 Q. In your opinion, sir, how many elected officials were
3 forced to resign as a result of your delivering information
4 to them?
5 A. Well, the only thing I wanted to go into without numbers
6 exactly, Mr. Galbraith - I am not authorized to go into the
7 rest of it - as far as history goes, last year was more
8 Senators and Congressmen resigned than any other time in the
9 history of the United States.
10 Q. How many Senators and Congressmen resigned in the last
12 A. I don't know exact number as of right now, sir. I have
13 been incarcerated for two and a half months and don't --
14 MR. HATFIELD: Objection, Your Honor.
15 THE COURT: Sustained. The jury will disregard
16 that comment.
17 BY MR. GALBRAITH:
18 Q. Would you - would you have - have you been blamed or
19 taken the credit for forcing the resignation of those
21 A. A good number of them, yes, sir. A very good number of
23 Q. Have you been described as such in the media that has
24 carried this information?
25 A. I have, yes, sir.
1 Q. Then would it be fair to say that there is no
2 surprise -- excuse me. Have you been the front man for this
3 whole effort, sir?
4 A. I have, yes, sir. Yeah, I have been the front man for
5 the Fifth Column. I'm the spokesman.
6 Q. Have you, aside from - aside from this, what's going on
7 right here, has the government sought any kind of sanction
8 against you as - for your activities?
9 A. Some branches of it have, yes, sir.
10 Q. Can you, keeping it within this context and given the
11 judge's parameters that she told to you stick to --
12 THE COURT: I am not setting any parameters, I
13 just want him to answer the questions.
14 MR. GALBRAITH: Yes, ma'am.
15 THE COURT: And right now I think we're doing a
16 real good job.
17 MR. GALBRAITH: Thank you, Your Honor, I
18 appreciate that.
19 BY MR. GALBRAITH:
20 Q. I want you to be pertinent on your answers now,
21 Mr. Hayes.
22 A. Okay.
23 MR. GALBRAITH: Could you read back my last
24 question, Mr. Perkins?
25 THE COURT: Has the government sought any
1 sanctions against you?
2 Q. Has the government sought any sanctions against you?
3 A. Certain departments have.
4 Q. Can you - keep it brief and to the point - can you
5 describe for the jury what might have been done regarding
6 your activities?
7 A. Well, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, I get
8 periodic visits from them quite often.
9 Q. Do you believe that it is this that led to your being -
10 testifying in front of a federal grand jury in Chicago?
11 A. That's part of it. And also the House subcommittees and
12 stuff, yeah. That's part of it.
13 Q. Mr. Hayes, do you feel that there are people or
14 officials within the government who are out to discredit
16 A. Yes, they are out to keep their job and discredit me as
17 far as they can, yes, sir.
18 Q. Do you have a theory as to what branch of government
19 these people work for?
20 A. Sir?
21 Q. Do you have a theory as to what branch of people these
22 government work for - or what branch of government these
23 people work for?
24 A. Yes, sir, I do.
25 Q. And who do you think they belong to?
1 A. Well, since the FBI is not a chartered organization,
2 they all come under the Department of Justice, sir.
3 Q. So you believe it's employees within the Department of
4 Justice; is that correct?
5 A. That's right.
Web Page http://www.aci.net/kalliste/
Posted here January 15, 1998