UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
EASTERN DISTRICT OF KENTUCKY

LONDON CRIMINAL #96-00060

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
PLAINTIFF,
VERSUS
CHALMER C. HAYES,
DEFENDANT.

LONDON, KENTUCKY
JANUARY 28, 1997
9:00 A.M.
DAY V
TRANSCRIPT OF TRIAL PROCEEDINGS
BEFORE THE HONORABLE JENNIFER B. COFFMAN
UNITED STATES DISTRICT JUDGE, and a jury


APPEARANCES:

FOR THE PLAINTIFF: MR. PATRICK MOLLOY
MR. MARTIN HATFIELD
ASSISTANT U.S. ATTORNEYS
110 WEST VINE ST.
LEXINGTON, KY 40507

FOR THE DEFENDANT: MR. GATEWOOD GALBRAITH
ATTORNEY AT LAW
1305 NICHOLASVILLE ROAD
LEXINGTON, KY


NATHAN F. PERKINS
OFFICIAL COURT REPORTER
P.O. BOX 5161
LONDON, KY 40745
(606) 878-8450

TUESDAY, JANUARY 28, 1997, 9:00 A.M.


Testimony of Charles S. Hayes Regarding his CIA Files

"I'm sure Jim Woosley was there, which I went to military school
with . . . He doesn't have a control name. I'm positive."

Background Reading: Spook Wars in Cyberspace--Is the FBI Railroading Charles Hayes?


Page 37

. . .

18 THE COURT: Mr. Hayes, just have a seat. You

19 won't be sworn again. You just need to remember that you

20 are still testifying under oath.

21 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

22 DIRECT EXAMINATION

23 BY MR. GALBRAITH:

24 Q. Mr. Hayes.

25 A. Yes, sir.

Page 38



1 Q. You have been present in the courtroom when this last

2 witness appeared, have you not?

3 A. Yes, sir, I have.

4 Q. And did you - did you hear what Mr. Hood testified to?

5 A. I did.

6 Q. And you noticed that he has given two affidavits from

7 people who purport they work for the CIA in the records

8 division. And if you recall, he testified that they gave

9 him certain names - gave them certain names and a couple of

10 Social Security numbers to run.

11 A. That's correct.

12 Q. Mr. Hayes, would that information have been sufficient

13 to uncover or to reveal your relationship with the CIA?

14 A. No, sir, he'll need a control number, he'll need to know

15 how to answer the questions when they ask him. In other

16 words, stuff about my life, number one. He would also need

17 a different name, sir.

18 Q. Are your records contained under a different name at the

19 CIA?

20 A. They are, sir.

21 Q. And do you know if those records still exist?

22 A. Yes, sir.

23 Q. Have those records been altered in any way, to your

24 knowledge?

25 A. Not to my knowledge, sir.

Page 39



1 Q. Could they have been without your knowledge?

2 A. No, sir, I doubt very seriously if that can happen, sir.

3 Q. Yes, sir. Are you at liberty to reveal your contact

4 number with the CIA to this jury and this Court?

5 A. Yes, sir, I am.

6 Q. Would you give these people and the Court and all people

7 sitting here what your contact number is with the CIA?

8 A. It always has been the same number for 42 years, 602367.

9 Q. That's your contact number with the CIA?

10 A. That's correct, sir.

11 Q. Now, if the CIA - could you give a telephone number on

12 which that could be checked?

13 A. In fact, the government got it out of my billfold. In

14 other words, when they picked it up. I haven't got the

15 number with me right now. But --

16 Q. The government has it in their possession?

17 A. Yeah, the government has it in their possession. It was

18 three numbers in my billfold. And they asked me for Social

19 Security numbers. That's the reason I never have given

20 exact Social Security numbers, because they also operate

21 under separate Social Security numbers, sir. That's the

22 reason I wouldn't answer the question.

23 Q. If you had - if they had a number and they called and

24 said this call is being made on behalf of contact number et

25 cetera, would they be asked any further questions?

Page 40



1 A. Yes, sir, they sure would.

2 Q. What questions would they be asked?

3 A. Probably be asked the name of my mother.

4 MR. HATFIELD: Objection, Your Honor.

5 A. And the name of my --

6 THE COURT: Just a minute, please. State your

7 basis.

8 MR. HATFIELD: It's hearsay, what questions they

9 would be asked.

10 THE COURT: Sustained.

11 BY MR. GALBRAITH:

12 Q. Would the person who called your contact with the

13 contact number be asked questions to ascertain their

14 identity?

15 A. Yes, they would, sir.

16 Q. If they could not answer those questions with the

17 appropriate response, would that information be given out?

18 A. No, sir, under no circumstances.

19 Q. Sir, are you - do you feel it's sufficient that your

20 contact number has been given or do you think that it would

21 hurt your status if you gave the name too?

22 A. Gave what name?

23 Q. What name that you operate under with the CIA.

24 A. No, sir, I don't mind.

25 Q. Would you tell the court that?

Page 41



1 A. It's up to the government if they want to redact it or

2 not. It's, it's Charles S. Lawson. And the reason for

3 Lawson, that was my mother's maiden name.

4 Q. If the CIA had been given that information and

5 required - or asked to put a records check in, is it your

6 belief that your employment with the CIA would be known?

7 A. Yes, I - they probably would given what information, if

8 it was pertinent to the Court.

9 Also, the print from your hand that opens doors, in the

10 back.

11 Q. Do you believe if your fingerprints had been sent to the

12 CIA that this would have been cleared up?

13 A. Well, that and also the heel print that opens doors.

14 They have in - they have a place where that you use not only

15 your fingerprints, it's the heel of your hand that goes up

16 and opens door, sir.

17 Q. I appreciate it. There is no question in your mind you

18 have been an employee of the CIA, is there?

19 A. No, sir.

20 MR. GALBRAITH: Okay. Thank you very much.

21 THE COURT: Mr. Hatfield?

22 CROSS EXAMINATION

23 BY MR. HATFIELD:

24 Q. Mr. Hayes, are you telling this Court and this jury that

25 nowhere within the records of the Central Intelligence

Page 42



1 Agency is the name Charles Hayes, Chuck Hayes, Chalmer

2 Hayes, can that be found anywhere on any record within the

3 Central Intelligence Agency? Is that what you are telling

4 this jury?

5 A. I don't know, sir. I can't answer something I don't

6 know, Mr. Hatfield. I told you how my name was listed. I

7 can't vouch for something, in other words, I don't know

8 anything about. I've never run it, I don't know.

9 Q. That's your not your legal name, is it?

10 A. Well, Mr. Hatfield, it's like everything else the

11 government does, some things they do aren't exactly legal.

12 THE COURT: Just answer the question, Mr. Hayes,

13 don't give a lecture. Is it your legal name or not?

14 A. Charles S. Hayes, Charles Sea Hayes is my legal name,

15 sir, it's on my birth certificate.

16 Q. Mr. Hayes, do you remember when you were on the witness

17 stand the first time that I went down about four names with

18 you?

19 A. Yes, sir.

20 Q. And I asked you if you had ever used or had any other

21 names, and you answered that question no. Do you recall

22 that?

23 A. No, sir, I do not recall that. And if you will go back

24 and get that testimony, sir, I don't think that's the way it

25 come out either, sir.

Page 43



1 Q. Is it your testimony here today that the CIA has no

2 records on any individual by their true given name; that

3 everybody uses, as you testified to, a control number,

4 excuse me, or contact number?

5 A. They all have control numbers, but that's not true, sir.

6 What you are trying to do is get into nuts and bolts. All

7 right. Let's answer it. Everybody that works for the

8 company --

9 Q. Mr. Hayes --

10 A. -- Central Intelligence Agency.

11 Q. I didn't ask you that question.

12 A. No, sir, you asked me a direct, broad form question and

13 I'm trying to narrow it down, Mr. Hatfield, and give you a

14 truthful, God given answer, sir. Please, let me do it.

15 MR. HATFIELD: Your Honor.

16 THE COURT: Just a minute, Mr. Hayes. What was

17 the question?

18 MR. HATFIELD: I asked him was it his testimony

19 that everybody within the CIA who is an employee of the CIA

20 is simply known by a control number, that no CIA records

21 reflect the true given name of any of its employees.

22 THE COURT: Okay. Answer the question first and

23 then you may explain if you need to, Mr. Hayes.

24 A. I need to explain.

25 THE COURT: Well, answer the question first.

Page 44



1 A. Yes, they are - and every member of the Central

2 Intelligence Agency has a control number. Now I need to

3 explain the other part of the question, Mr. Hatfield.

4 THE COURT: Go okay. Go ahead and explain.

5 A. Very simple. Everybody does not work in covert actions,

6 so therefore they do not get a second name. A lot of people

7 that goes there, the stenographers, they type up things,

8 computer operators, they operate under their same name. I'm

9 sure Jim Woosley was there, which I went to military school

10 with, is director of the CIA, I am sure that Jim's name is

11 listed on there just as Jim Woosley, I'm sure. He doesn't

12 have a control name. I'm positive.

13 Q. Well, whether control numbers exist and whether or not

14 people who do work for the CIA have control numbers, that

15 doesn't mean that each individual who is an employee of the

16 CIA doesn't have records concerning their true name; isn't

17 that correct, Mr. Hayes?

18 A. Yes, sir, but it is handled in a different manner,

19 Mr. Hatfield.

20 Q. Well, you heard Agent Hood --

21 A. Mr. Hatfield, what you are saying, you are trying to

22 subvert the truth.

23 Q. No, I'm not, Mr. Hayes.

24 A. Okay, sir.

25 Q. No, I'm not.

Page 45



1 THE COURT: All right.

2 A. I am sorry, I didn't --

3 THE COURT: Wait just a minute, Mr. Hayes.

4 THE WITNESS: Yes, ma'am.

5 THE COURT: Stop sparring with Mr. Hatfield,

6 please, and stop criticizing him and just answer the

7 question.

8 THE WITNESS: Ma'am, please, I - I'm really trying

9 to answer --

10 THE COURT: Don't criticize him. You told him

11 he's subverting the truth. Don't do that again. Just

12 answer the question.

13 THE WITNESS: Okay, I'm sorry for that, ma'am. I

14 shouldn't have maybe said that.

15 THE COURT: All right.

16 THE WITNESS: What I'm trying to say is, you can

17 answer a question in several ways.

18 THE COURT: No, you are just going to answer it,

19 you are not going to editorialize it. Just answer the

20 question. Do you remember what it is now?

21 THE WITNESS: He asked --

22 THE COURT: Okay.

23 THE WITNESS: He, in other words, if everybody had

24 a control number. Yes, everybody has a control number,

25 Mr. Hatfield.

Page 46



1 BY MR. HATFIELD:

2 Q. I think the question was, are you telling this jury that

3 there is - that just because individuals who work at the CIA

4 have a control number, the CIA has no reference in their

5 files anywhere concerning that employee's real name, real

6 date of birth and so forth? Is that what you are telling

7 the jury?

8 A. No, sir.

9 Q. Are you telling the jury that - that because of your

10 particular relationship with the CIA, that they don't have

11 anywhere in their records your true name and your true date

12 of birth and your true Social Security numbers?

13 A. I'm sure they do, sir.

14 Q. And you heard Agent Hood read into the record those

15 affidavits which indicated that diligent, thorough searches

16 had been made of all contract employees, operational

17 employees, administrative employees, and none of those

18 searches show that you ever worked for the CIA. Did you

19 hear that?

20 A. No, sir.

21 Q. You didn't hear Agent Hood --

22 A. What I understood, that under three names that he asked,

23 and only three names did he ask and two Social Security

24 numbers did he ask if I was employed. He also stated that

25 he did not send my fingerprints or heel print in either one

Page 47



1 of them, sir.

2 Q. Mr. Hayes, that wasn't my question.

3 A. I answered your question to the best of my ability,

4 Mr. Hatfield.

5 Q. My question was, are you telling this jury that the

6 Central Intelligence Agency would have no information

7 concerning your true name, your true Social Security number

8 and your true date of birth?

9 A. No, sir, I didn't say that at all, sir.

10 MR. HATFIELD: All right. Thank you, Mr. Hayes.

11 THE COURT: Mr. Galbraith, anything else?

12 MR. GALBRAITH: Nothing further, Your Honor.

13 THE COURT: All right. Thank you, Mr. Hayes, you

14 may step gown and return to your seat.


Web Page http://www.aci.net/kalliste/
Posted here January 6, 1998